papa lazarou

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lost

papa lazarou

Post by lost » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:17 pm

i have just joined so im new. apologies if this subject has been done already.

what do you make of the suggestion of racism in the papa lazarou character? i know the voice came from steve and reeces landlord but whats the idea behind the make ip?

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Laura Folds Five
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Post by Laura Folds Five » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:25 pm

Hi. :)

Well, I've never heard of a race of people with jet black skin and white around their eyes and mouth. So I can't see any racism, myself.

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Post by serafina pekkala » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:37 pm

Laura Folds Five wrote:Hi. :)

Well, I've never heard of a race of people with jet black skin and white around their eyes and mouth. So I can't see any racism, myself.
Hiya from me too

i can see that some accusations of racism may link to the Black & White Minstrels they had way back then. But Minstrels are specifically imitating black people and thus are offensive in a crude parody.

Papa is different cos he is not trying to be a black person or any actual specific reperesentaion. Papa is an OTT parody of a fake gypsy. He is more like a clown or a harlequin. His make-up is sort-of similar but that is all really. The link is not obvious to me and to suggest that Papa is 'sort of black' is utterly wrong and possibly offensive in itself. I mean, as Laura says, i have never known or seen people of African Origin remotely like Papa. Thats crazee!!!!

Funny but the people who complain about such things are generally over-sensitive white liberals. My Japanese friend though Oshii was a bit dodgy though.


Sefi x
Last edited by serafina pekkala on Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lost

Post by lost » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:37 pm

the black and white minstrels, gollywogs....

im not saying it racist and im not saying its wrong, i just wonder what was the inspiration behind it.

i have an avatar of him on another forum i go on and an american on there asked me what was it all about.

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Post by serafina pekkala » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:43 pm

lost wrote:the black and white minstrels, gollywogs....

im not saying it racist and im not saying its wrong, i just wonder what was the inspiration behind it.

i have an avatar of him on another forum i go on and an american on there asked me what was it all about.
I see - Americans often are sensitive to such things. maybe even over-sensitive. So much more history and subtext can be read into things on the subject of race so it's is understandable on some level.

The inspiration was probably gypsy mummers of old. And in Highgate house of Horror on the Xmas DVD they make reference to a voodoo character from an Amicus horror film.

Maybe find the answer here:
http://www.pandemoniumcarnival.com/

Sefi x

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Post by Stonesy » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:42 pm

I think it is a nod to the comedy of the 1970s where black and white minstrels were made fun of as in Spike Milligans programmes and The Goodies. The outdated and rascist nature of the minstrels (and rascism in general) were a new and modern thing then, as we did not have a substantial black and ethnic population in this country until the 1950s and 60s. In the 1980s this was iradicated, possibly quite rightly. Due to Maggie Thatcher and her pals being such bastards comedy became quite active politically. However once she got kicked out and Vic Reeves came along to make comedy daft again it mattered less, but hung around as a knee jerk response for anyone making jokes based on race. By the time of Papa Lazarou's appearence it was obviously deemed safe to put on a black and white minstrel face for comedy again because the rascist overtones have gone the way of powerful trade unions. There is a tantilising glimpse in the LOG script book of the BBC press release regarding this issue but you can't make out how they would have defended it. But since no one complained we may not find out.

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Post by serafina pekkala » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:07 pm

Stonesy wrote:I think it is a nod to the comedy of the 1970s where black and white minstrels were made fun of as in Spike Milligans programmes and The Goodies. The outdated and rascist nature of the minstrels (and rascism in general) were a new and modern thing then, as we did not have a substantial black and ethnic population in this country until the 1950s and 60s. In the 1980s this was iradicated, possibly quite rightly. Due to Maggie Thatcher and her pals being such bastards comedy became quite active politically. However once she got kicked out and Vic Reeves came along to make comedy daft again it mattered less, but hung around as a knee jerk response for anyone making jokes based on race. By the time of Papa Lazarou's appearence it was obviously deemed safe to put on a black and white minstrel face for comedy again because the rascist overtones have gone the way of powerful trade unions. There is a tantilising glimpse in the LOG script book of the BBC press release regarding this issue but you can't make out how they would have defended it. But since no one complained we may not find out.
couldn't have said it better really. Thats how i see it too.

Sefi x

lost

Post by lost » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:12 pm

cheers for the info!

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Post by Tubbs get undressed » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:36 pm

Ive never thought of him as a racist character, Maybe a few Gypsies would take offence but i dont think they have reason to be.
If people were really worried about offended people all the time there would be no comedy! I mean look at Little Britain this series!
Is that why i have to wash my face with a potato?

Kind of like a .. David .. Brown.


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Post by Harvey Denton » Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:24 pm

Well, if Oshii is dodgy (not even worth commenting on the mere possibility of Papa being racist - how can you be racist to the devil incarnate?) then the Little Britain newsagent sketch certainly is. Asian makeup, silly voices? I have no objection to it really, but if people are offended by Oshii, then they must be by that.

Or are they afraid of questioning it because Matt Lucas is gay?

lost

Post by lost » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:26 pm

forgive me, whos Oshii

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Post by Stonesy » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm

The Japanese bloke in the dog cinema sketch.

lost

Post by lost » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:51 pm

ahhhhhhhh seen.

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Post by Jack G_TOLF » Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:14 pm

Our sixth form puts on a Children in Need event in which we do as much as we can to raise money for the charity (our small sixth form alone last year raised £17,000 we're very proud). As well as charity shows we spend the whole of the day in fancy dress raising money throughout the local area, well last year i wanted to go as Papa Lazararu but then it dawned on me of how people might see that in my town. So i questioned my head of year, who's a big league fan, and he said that as most people haven't seen the show they would think i was a black and white minstrel or a gollywog. So i went as a hybrid of The Phantom of the Opera, Papa Lazaru and a clown. I wanted to go as him the year before, but that year i was raising money in a local primary school i decided it probably was too unsubtable.
I think it is a nod to the comedy of the 1970s where black and white minstrels were made fun of as in Spike Milligans programmes and The Goodies. The outdated and rascist nature of the minstrels (and rascism in general) were a new and modern thing then, as we did not have a substantial black and ethnic population in this country until the 1950s and 60s. In the 1980s this was iradicated, possibly quite rightly. Due to Maggie Thatcher and her pals being such bastards comedy became quite active politically. However once she got kicked out and Vic Reeves came along to make comedy daft again it mattered less, but hung around as a knee jerk response for anyone making jokes based on race. By the time of Papa Lazarou's appearence it was obviously deemed safe to put on a black and white minstrel face for comedy again because the rascist overtones have gone the way of powerful trade unions. There is a tantilising glimpse in the LOG script book of the BBC press release regarding this issue but you can't make out how they would have defended it. But since no one complained we may not find out.
How very well articulated, couldn't agree more, have you read Sunshine on Puty by Ben Thompson?

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Post by Stonesy » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:31 pm

Jack G_TOLF wrote:may not find out.
How very well articulated, couldn't agree more, have you read Sunshine on Puty by Ben Thompson?[/quote]

Thanks. I have read it aye, I thought it was a bit smug and he came across as a bit of a twat, but it was a good enough read. As an alternative to it you could do worse than this;

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/sotcaa/sotcaa ... ry_ab.html

Also thinking on about it, a lot if the humour in the Goodies was that it was a real life version of the old 1940s Looney Tunes cartoons, which if you watch them have a lot of dubious racial content so theres that to add. The DVD is out today with the infamous South African episode with a commentary by the Goodies so I'm looking forward to what they say about it.

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